Episode 05: Being Bad At Something, On Purpose

In this conversation, Brent and Rob explore the significance of learning new skills, especially in midlife. They discuss childhood hobbies, the importance of having a learning list in midlife, and the challenges of embracing new experiences. Rob shares his journey of learning to bake bread, riding a unicycle, and his ambitious list of 50 things to learn in his fifties. The conversation emphasizes the value of curiosity, the joy of learning, and the importance of maintaining mental stimulation as we age.

Links, resources, books mentioned:

• Living with a Seal - Jesse Itzler

• Living with the Monks - Jesse Itzler

(This post includes affiliate links. As an Amazon Associate, we may earn a small commission if you purchase through these links—at no extra cost to you.)

Topics we are covering in this episode:

• Learning new skills can bring joy and opportunity.

• Embracing challenges is essential for personal growth.

• Having a learning list can help fill time in midlife.

• Curiosity drives lifelong learning and exploration.

• It's okay to be a novice and embrace the learning process.

• Humor can help navigate the awkwardness of being a beginner.

• Setting achievable goals can motivate continued learning.

• Sharing experiences with others can enhance the learning journey.

• The journey of learning is as important as the outcome.

Transcript:

Transcript Disclaimer - May contain the occasional confusing, inaccurate, or unintentionally funny transcription moment. It’s all part of the show.

Lena: Remember when being bad at something was just part of being a kid? Now we avoid it like the plague. Today on Midlife Circus, Brent and Rob get curious about discomfort and why it's exactly what midlife needs. From sourdough flops to surf wipeouts to unicycles in the driveway, they explore how being a beginner again can spark joy, boost longevity, and reignite identity. It's not about mastery, it's about momentum.

Let's dive in to being bad at something on purpose.

Brent: When you were a kid, what was one of your favorite hobbies?

Rob: So I played a lot of sports growing up. Soccer, I learned how to ski and ski race. I ran track. I played basketball, all sorts of, sports. But as I think about hobby, there are a couple of hobbies I picked up back in middle school.

One was juggling, and I was given a juggling set of balls and scarves to learn how to juggle when I was in middle school. And, the other hobby was, yo-yo, and I learned how to yo-yo and got actually pretty good at it. Won a contest actually in middle school for using a yo-yo.

Brent: Yo-yos are so fun. Now I was never really good at yo-yos. My older brother was pretty good. What were some of your tricks? Because I could only do a few, then I would usually hit myself on the head with a yo-yo.

So

Rob: Well, I hit myself quite a bit as I was learning the tricks. So I think baby in a cradle was one of them. You had walked the dog and around the world, and there was this one trick that I don't know how I how I came across it or where I saw it. I think it may have been on, you know, Johnny Carson with the Smothers Brothers late at night or something like that, but it was called spaghetti dinner. And you end up you know, you throw the yo-yo down, and it sits and spins at the bottom for a while, and you pull all the string up, and you get it all the way up by your mouth, and then you drop the yo-yo and slurp it back up, and the yo-yo comes all the way back up into your hand.

Brent: That is so fun.

Rob: Yeah. I haven't thought about that trick in years. I may have to get the yo-yo out and try it again.

Brent: Tell me about your yo-yos. Because I remember we had I think my favorite was like a glow in the dark yo-yo just because we'd play I have a older brother and older sisters who'd, like, play in our backyard at night and stuff. So what kind of yo-yos did you have?

Rob: So I had a glow in the dark one for sure. The Duncan Butterfly, I think, was one that I had. That might have been the glow in the dark one or not. I had one of those ones that had, a weird gyroscope inside that when you threw it down, it would just spin forever. In fact, sometimes it would spin so long, it would just die down there.

You couldn't get it back up into your hand. But when I got really proficient, I ended up moving to an old classic wooden yo-yo, and, it got actually pretty good using that one. I had probably had three or four different ones at different times. I think I broke the butterfly one by taking it apart. That was the basically, backwards yo-yo.

Right? So they took a regular round yo-yo, and they just spun it around until it looked cool. I think I ended up breaking that by taking it apart to figure out how it worked, but quite a few different ones. And I'm guessing with the glow in the dark ones, if you're outside playing with them at night, I'm guessing there were some hitting each other with them going on, because I know I did that with my brother with a yo-yo.

Brent: Oh, yeah. I mean, it's all fun and games till somebody, you know, gets a black eye.

Rob: Don't tell mom.

Brent: And I was the youngest, so my guess is my older brother and sister teamed up on me. Just common in the in the Drever household. I don't want to lose sight. I think you said you won a contest.

Rob: I did win a contest.

Brent: Tell me about that.

Rob: Yeah. So I was the Macy's New York City. So New York City Macy's Smothers Brothers Yo-yo contest champion as a kid. What?

Brent: Yeah. No. Come on. What? Tell me more.

Like, I Well, think you know lived in New York.

Rob: Yeah. I lived in New York for a couple years. It wasn't that big of a deal. There were only a handful of other kids competing. Lived in New York for a couple years growing up, and I don't know how my parents may have seen it on TV or something like that.

So they took us down to Macy's, and I'd been using the yo-yo for maybe two years at this point, you know, reading books and watching different tricks on TV late night, trying to learn the different tricks. And, we went down to this contest, and, the Smothers Brothers were there. Both brothers were there. They were judging the contest. And my brother and I both competed and ended up winning out.

And the prize, get this, the prize was a $100 Macy's gift card, which we promptly turned into a brand new Nintendo system. So I was able to buy the family a Nintendo game system at, I don't know, 12 or 13 years old. We couldn't afford any games, so we got the one game that came with it. So the Mario Brothers and Duck Hunt. But I turned, the art of yo-yo into a video game system, and I quit playing yo-yo after that because I had to know how to video game.

Brent: Very entrepreneurially of you that you figured out a way to get a Nintendo. Absolutely. And you probably wore that game out.

Rob: Oh, completely. Yeah. I figured out how to solve that thing, and then it was how many lives can I do it in? You know? So how many how can I do the whole, Super Mario Brothers in one life and go through every level that way?

So, yeah, I wore that game out. We eventually got a second game. I think it was a a used game, but we'd end up, end up playing a lot of, Nintendo after that.

Brent: Well, I never got the opportunity because I didn't know you then, Rob, but congratulations. Thank you. I'm sure that was a very big highlight of your informative years.

Rob: Yeah. Well, next time you're over, I'll show you the plaque. I got a little trophy for it too. I think I I think I still have the trophy up in the attic.

Brent: I definitely want to see that. Yeah. So this takes us to our conversation today, and it's a good segue. And we're going to talk about being bad at something on purpose. And to kick things off, we're at this stage in life, we call it midlife, and we are in this habit of settling in, and it's easy to do.

And it's our roles, our habits, our routines. Why do you think that is?

Rob: It's easy. We have enough stressors in our lives that go on between work and family and obligations that it's easy to get into a routine. And it's easy to settle into a habit and not challenge ourselves in areas of our life that might, create joy or opportunity. There's also the risk that's involved with challenging ourselves as we get a little bit later on in life. And so I think a lot of us end up just taking the easy button, not wanting to learn something new, not wanting to challenge ourselves because we have enough stress elsewhere that we want to avoid it.

Brent: So a key takeaway for our conversation today, there's going to be two. The first one is when we take on new challenges and we learn something new, that is helpful in the transition from when you're working and you're incredibly busy to now you have something to do. So we'll talk a little bit about that. And then we're going to just talk a little about the importance of learning and especially when you get to be our age. And I don't know if you've seen it.

You and I were talking about the other day, the new series that's on Disney plus it's limitless, which the star of it is Chris Hemsworth. It's a three part series and they're focused on improving health and longevity. And one of them in particular is about learning something that's really challenging. And I won't do the spoiler alert because it's really neat how they do it. But the science that's introduced in that, and it was actually shocking because I hadn't heard it this way, is when you hit 40, your brain loses about 5% of mass every decade after the age of 40.

So the doctor that was describing this to Chris was saying, it's the simple thing sometimes where you may not remember what you had for lunch yesterday. And you might kind of laugh it off. That's your brain is reducing in mass, so you're going to start to forget things. It's really interesting because it introduces his fears and his anxieties, and he's very open with it. But what's interesting about it is how they fuse the science into it.

And they talk about like, what's actually happening to the body when you age and what are things that you can promote longevity. And so what we're going to talk about today is there's a time filler element of learning a new skill. So it's like, you now may have all this time, so what are you going to do with it? And then there's this longevity component. We're not going to get into the science anymore than I just mentioned, but there is science backed data that tells us that learning something new is really important and challenge yourself on an ongoing basis.

So to help us transition to that, I want to start with something relatively easy to discuss. And I want to understand for you is what is one thing that you've done in let's say the last, I don't know, six to twelve months that's humbled you.

Rob: Well, I know we titled this episode being bad at something on purpose. I don't know that I was trying to be bad at this on purpose, but one of the things on my list of things to learn, which I know we'll reference here and talk about in a couple of minutes, is learning how to bake bread. And so I'm currently in the process of learning how to bake sourdough bread. I had a friend give me some starter a while ago, so I had to learn how to keep that alive and how to feed it on a regular basis, make sure it stays alive. But learning how to break bake bread, excuse me.

And I'll tell you, Brent, the first time I made bread, you actually had one of the my first loaves, and it was pretty darn good. I'm like, make a loaf. I'm like, this turned out fantastic. I don't think I'll ever buy a loaf a loaf of bread at the grocery store ever again. I'm just going to make bread for me and Tara and friends.

I'm just this has become the best thing ever. Right? And I think you like the loaf. Right?

Brent: Oh, it was fantastic. I remember you brought it up. We did a group of us went camping. Right? Yeah.

And you brought it camping and everybody's like, what? You made this? Yeah. And it wasn't us saying you made this like Rob can't do this. It was just, you're like, yeah, I just started.

I just this is how it is. We're like, kids got the golden gift.

Rob: It was perfect. It was great. Actually, it tasted so good. Since that point, I've never made bread that good. In fact, they've almost all been failures.

All but one batch was edible. So this most recent batch I made, Brent, it was denser than a hockey puck. Just imagine this. It was a loaf of bread that was so dense when you put butter on it and then stuck the butter in the toaster after you buttered it. The butter just pooled up and rolled off the sides of the bread.

It didn't actually soak into the bread. It was that dense. So probably the curse I had in baking bread was is I had a good success early on. I didn't do anything. I just got lucky.

And ever since that point, I've been trying to learn how to learn actually new ways of baking bread or the what I did the first time trying to relearn that or recreate it. Because every time I do it, it's been different. And so this has been a process now for me to try and bake different types of bread. I have a I have the starter out on the counter right now. I'm getting ready to start another loaf so you can try my next loaf.

Hopefully, it's not going to be, not going to be the dense hockey puck again. I'm going to take a little more time early on this time and see if I can figure out if that's what the problem was by letting it, ferment a little bit longer upfront. But very humbling, making bread, having it work, and then not being able to recreate that over the last six months.

Brent: So you had this chance to learn something and you also have done something more recently, which I want to talk about because I find it really fascinating. So you recently turned 50, so congratulations.

Rob: Thank you. Thank you. Every bone in my body hurts now getting out of bed. So it was a it was a light switch that went off that everything hurts now.

Brent: Of course. Yeah. And part of that was you created 50 things to learn list in your fifties. So let's talk about the origin of that. A, where did you come up with that idea?

And B, why did you do it?

Rob: It's a great question. Tara and I have had a life list. So we started putting a list of things together that we want to do in our lives. So things on the life list were climb all the fourteeners. They were things like go to Africa.

So the life list became kind of our bucket list. We started working on this list and so much so that my Instagram account is lifeless couple. And that's kind of the things that we'd go and do on a regular basis is check off these items. And as I got closer to leaving my last employer and going into retirement, I started getting a little bit worried. I was getting worried that I was going to be bored and people were asking me, well, you're going to retire.

You're young. What are you going to do? Aren't you going to get bored? And that started to creep in that I was going to get bored while I was retired. And I was going to miss the mental stimulation that I was getting at work.

And Brent, you were in this world too. I had a pretty stressful job at a senior executive level. A lot of things pulling on me in different directions. I had to make a lot of different decisions. And every day, the mental stimulus was pretty high.

I go home, you know, I I come home or I'd be at home working virtually and I'd be exhausted by the end of the day. And leaving that environment, I was just anxious that I was not going to be content or happy with how my mind was being challenged after I left retirement. And so about four to six months before I, I actually pulled the plug and left, Jesse Itzler had a post on Instagram. And for those that don't know Jesse Itzler, he is an influencer now on Instagram, but he was, he created Marquee Jets and then ended up selling it to NetJets. He had a coconut water company that he sold, I think, to Coca Cola or one of the big beverage companies.

He's written a couple of books, including, like, Living with a Monk and Living with a Seal. Some have been following for a while. Just his lifestyle seems fascinating and interesting to me. And he had a post, and the post was showing him learning stuff. And he listed in this post his 50 things that he wanted to learn in his fifties.

So, Brent, I stole this directly from him. His 50 things that Jesse was going to learn in his fifties, and I think he's, like, 56 or 57, so he was showing a post of how he was progressing in his learning. I think the video I saw was him playing ping pong. He wanted to be a competitive ping pong player or learn how to be good enough at ping pong that he could be somewhat competitive, and it showed him playing ping pong. And that list and that concept stuck with me to say, you know what?

There's a chain there's an opportunity here for me that I can continue to get that mental stimulus that I might miss from work by continuing to develop and learn different skills, master different skills, become proficient at different things after I go and retire when I have plenty of time on my hands. That's really where the list came from was me just being scared of, of being bored and not getting the challenges that I would be leaving as I left work and needing something new to start tackling and trying to accomplish.

Brent: You know, what's really interesting about that is I can't say it probably strong enough. It's such an awkward feeling when you leave your company and you go into a retired lifestyle, semi-retired, and you have time. It's so strange because your calendar went from incredibly full to incredibly empty. And so by having things to go to, now they're not the same. They're not potentially intellectually stimulating with the human interaction that you get in the office every single day.

They can be, that can be on your list. You can generate things like that, but it's just a different feeling. So to have this go to list of opportunities to explore, I can't emphasize it enough, so important to do. Whether it's 50 or 10 or five, it doesn't matter. It's having something to lean into that you can work on because you're going to have time, and you don't want that time to be spent worrying about why am I not working anymore, or what am I going to do for the rest of my life?

It's nice to have something just to go to.

Rob: Absolutely. And the difference of this list compared to what my wife and I have, which is the life list, is it's truly a learning list. The life list is things to go and do. It's like it's experiences to have. It's places to go.

It's things I think you mentioned this to me before. It's things I can actually buy almost. Right? So I can buy a trip to Africa and have that experience. I can't buy learning Spanish.

I can buy the tools to learn Spanish, but I need to actually take the time to sit in front of a computer with a Spanish teacher or however I end up deciding to learn Spanish. I have to actually take the time to become proficient at something, not just do it, but become proficient at it.

Brent: I think that's a important distinction because when you were sharing these ideas with me, and when I looked at your list, which we'll get into a few of the items on the list, I started to think about my list and some of them were more bucket list related. It's go to a specific place, go do an event. And it wasn't, I'm not learning a new skill, I'm paying my way in, or I'm just making the time to go to a destination. I think those are two different things. On the flip side of that is there's certain things that I have on my list of what I want to do that requires a lot of learning to do it.

So if I want to go fly fishing at one remote destination, I'm going to spend months preparing for that trip because I want to make sure I know the technical aspect of the fishing techniques there that will work. I want to make sure that I'm prepared for it. So there's a little learning, actually, some cases, a lot of learning that goes into that. And that's where the two lists may kind of merge together. So before we get into a few of the items, because I'm super curious about a couple of them, is how did you get it to 50?

Because I find that I could have a thousand things on my list and that's just my curiosity and just who I am. How did you get it down to 50? Because seems daunting to me.

Rob: So my list, I think the highest point the list got was, like, 64, 65ish in terms of total number of items, and it took me a while to build it. It was something I saw on TV, something that I experienced in my life that I'm like, oh, you know, it'd be neat to do that. So I just started adding stuff to a list knowing I had six months before I would need to start learning any of these tasks, anything that I saw anywhere that looked fun or interesting or different, I put it on the list. I asked friends about the list. Hey.

I'm building this list, you know, of things I want to learn. You know, what would you put on your list? And then, the interesting thing, one of the things on my list is learning how to use AI better. And after having played with it a little bit from time to time and been on a couple of vacations with a 25 year old that talked about using AI for a lot of different things, I figured this is the future we're in and I need to start learning it. So learning AI is on my list.

And I started working with chat to help me narrow down and really categorize the list and identify if there's anything missing that I should be considering or not. So I used a tool to help me narrow down that list and help me actually find categories in my life and my personality that I might need to fulfill.

Brent: That's great. I reviewed your entire list, and I learned a lot about you in reviewing the list. There's certain things I don't understand how they made the list because I didn't see that in you. Yeah. So that was the fun part for me.

I'm going to list just five or six of them, and maybe you could just share a few of your ideas. Why did it make the list? What was your curiosity? All right, here's a couple of them. Learn American sign language, competently ride a horse in variable conditions, solve a Rubik's cube, paragliding, mushroom foraging, and memory skills.

So those are a few that just stuck out. Pick one or two of those and talk to us about why did they make the list and then what's your thinking behind it? Because I'm sure I know you well, Rob. I'm sure you're very thoughtful in considering your list and there was an intent behind it. It wasn't just like, oh, that sounds interesting.

There's probably something a little bit deeper. So maybe grab a couple of those and share your thoughts.

Rob: All right. So solving the Rubik's Cube. I bought a Rubik's cube, I think, fifteen years ago because a guy that worked for me in my office had one, and he was learning how to solve it. And Dustin figured out how to solve the Rubik's cube probably in about three days. And then he was actually speed solving the thing, and then he bought the bigger one, and he was learning how to solve that.

And so I started playing with the Rubik's cube, and I feared off. Dustin can learn this, so can I? And months went by, and I couldn't figure it out. And it just pissed me off. Truly, did, Brent.

I was I was, like, super competitive at the time that Mike, I can't believe that I can't figure this out. I've been able to figure out stuff like this before, the patterns, the movements. I said, this should be easy. Never figured it out, I and just put the Rubik's cube away and never touch it again after about two months. I'm like, this is dumb.

Who wants to solve this stupid thing anyway? I started blaming the cube for not being cool enough for me to touch. And I started putting this list together. I had the Rubik's cube in my desk drawer. It's still sitting there today.

And, I saw it. I'm like, you know what? I need to finally figure that out. I'll just I'll take the time. I have plenty of time now to figure it out.

I've learned patience, a little bit of more patience as I've gotten older. And, and I'm starting to, want to try to figure out how to solve that thing. And it's not just solve it once. I want to be able to solve it on a regular basis within a within a relatively, I wouldn't say competitive time period, but pretty quickly. That somebody can hand me a Rubik's cube and pretty quick I can actually solve that thing.

So that's where the Rubik's cube came from.

Brent: It's interesting about a Rubik's cube. So back on the science side, when you learn a new skill and a skill that requires both hands and there's a visual component to it, it just adds complexity and that's part of helping brain health. It's really interesting. We're not doctors here. We're not providing any sort of medical advice, but what I understand is when you can incorporate the dexterity side of things, it helps with just building those brain connections.

I actually have an interesting story about a Rubik's cube, because I've been curious about them as well. And I went down the journey a handful of years ago and I learned how to solve it. I read some books and stuff to do it, but I can tell you, I don't remember how to do it now. So it was like, once I did it, I was like, great, I can do it. And then I let that last for like two weeks and then I just put it down and it's gone.

But there was this The coolest thing that I've seen in utilization outside of speed cubers who just do it in like seconds. As I was at a conference once and a keynote speaker, leveraged the Rubik's cube to talk about problem solving. He brought it out and he just said, you know, this is something that I've integrated into the way I think. And he had it all mixed up or had some of the audience mix it all up. And as he was talking to the audience, he was actually solving the cube.

And he would say, you know, sometimes you just have to get to your first milestone. And he would show one side. And then he's like, Sometimes it gets a little bit complex. And would say, and he would screw up the one side, but he would get another side. He's like, So then he talked about the counterbalance.

Like sometimes you solve one thing, but you actually created a problem elsewhere. And so he ends up solving it. And everybody was fascinated by his approach to his thinking. And he just used it as a problem solving. From that point forward, he was known as the Rubik's cube guy, you know, and just to solve problems.

And it was really interesting. I always remember that. And that was probably twenty, twenty five years ago when I was at this conference and it was just neat how he integrated the Rubik's cube into problem solving and thinking. And, it connected really well with the audience.

Rob: Well, the other thing I think about in the change that'll be for this one in particular is the ability of learning methods now. So I can actually watch different ways of solving a Rubik's Cube on YouTube. We didn't have that when I was trying to learn it the first time. And if it was, I wasn't thinking if that was a place to go and learn. So I I've pulled up a couple of videos.

There's a number of different videos available, tons of videos on how to solve a Rubik's Cube online now that I can actually watch, pause, rewatch over and over again. I think back to learning to yo-yo back when I was in middle school. You had to read a book or watch it live on TV. You couldn't get it any other way. Right?

Now we have the ability to actually slow down a little bit and take the time it might be to actually learn the process of doing something by repetition.

Brent: It's that no excuses side of it. You have all these resources that are just at your fingertips to learn something new. So whether you like to use a book, whether you listen to a podcast, whether you go to YouTube, whether you go to a class, there's so many ways to absorb skills. And that's what makes it fun because you're going to learn, like you said, there's different techniques to solve it. And from my personal experience, there's like, I didn't know this.

There's so many ways you can solve a Rubik's cube. I just didn't know that. And when I went into it, I learned one technique. It'd be cool to learn a couple. Yeah.

And I think that's a cool one. So alright. So that's Rubik's cube.

Rob: Rubik's riding a horse competently. Yeah. That's Yellowstone, Brent. That's the TV show Yellowstone. It just looks so cool.

I mean, just think about being a cowboy riding around on a horse in the forest by yourself or with a couple of friends. Just how peaceful that is, how majestic it is, how pretty that show was at times, that's where it came from. Like, you know, it'd be fun to know how to ride a horse and be able to go out in the woods like this and go camping from the back of a horse someday. That's what

Brent: Are you like are you like city slickers here? Are you trying to be one of those where you're going to go to

Rob: No. It's not going to be just at, a cattle camp or a bougie, you know, experience. I'm trying to figure out now where can I go to actually find an arena to be able to buy a horse? Not buy a horse. That'd be oh, trying to get buying a horse by Tara, that's never going to happen.

But, go to arena to learn

Brent: how

Rob: to ride a horse. And then, my buddy Scott, who you know, owns a ranch down in, Central Colorado. He keeps inviting me down to go out there with him. I'm just afraid I'm going to hurt myself or look like an idiot. So I'm going to take a class from a professional, and then I'll go join my buddy Scott down on his ranch, hopefully, one of these days.

Brent: This is one on the list that this shows how different you and I are in certain things in life. The horses for me because the greatest allergic reaction of any animal. I did the allergy test once years ago and they do it where they prick your skin and it just shows if you have a reaction. It lit up my entire back, the horse. And so it's funny, my brother has it too and we were just laughing about this a couple weeks ago and we're saying, I start sniffling when I see a picture of a horse.

So me being around a horse, the last time I was on a horse, I was 12 years old in Santa Fe. My parents planned this great family trip, and we're doing this horseback riding. And my brother and I were like balloons. Like we blowed up, blew up so big from the allergic reaction. Like, oh, I guess horseback riding is not in our kids' future.

Rob: Not in your future.

Brent: So you can tell me about it and I still might get allergic reaction.

Rob: I'll let you know. Yeah. The American Sign Language one, that hit the list pretty early, and it came from an experience I had while out volunteering at a running event. So I was volunteering a couple years ago at an ultra-marathon, and this woman came into the aid station, and everybody's trying to help all the runners coming in, and she was deaf. And there was no way to communicate with her.

And I felt bad, quite honestly. I personally felt bad. I wish I wish I could have helped more, especially in an ultra-marathon when people are pretty fatigued and maybe out of their mind a little bit. I wish I could have been had a way to communicate with her. She basically got to the place of just pointing at stuff and trying to say I want this and holding numbers in her hand and holding a backpack and it was more gestures than anything else.

And so learning American Sign Language hit my list because of that experience. And I know with all the travel that you've done, Brent, I'm assuming you've been airports and seen people that are deaf that are trying to figure things out or see people that are blind. For me, I just wanting to be able to help. And I'm assuming you've seen that as you've been around in in your travels.

Brent: Oh, absolutely. And I feel the way you just described it, I feel very vulnerable. Like, why don't I know this? Yeah. And I liked to see that on your list because it has the way you just described it.

It has this purpose to it. You know, you're going to learn something. It's going to be challenging. My assumption is it's going to be challenging. And there's probably a lot of ways that you can learn sign language, but with the intent of being at service to someone else.

Absolutely. That's great. I was excited to see that on the list because I didn't know that was the reason why that you chose to do this. I think it's fun when you have an event or something that happens in your life and you're able to reflect backwards and say, I'm going to solve this one going forward. And you're going to be at service to somebody else in that situation.

So that's great.

Rob: Yeah. Brent, something that's on my list that I know you experienced recently is learning to surf. And having grown up on the West Coast for most of my life, I had a surfboard, and my wife and I during college would drive out to the coast and try to surf, and we ended up standing up in white water for about five seconds before we'd fall down and get, you know, get salt water up your nose and in every orifice in our body. And, I never got any good at it. So it's something that hit the list that I'd like to be able to surf and physically be able to go out in a wave and surf.

And I know you just got back a couple months ago from a surfing camp, and I like to learn a little bit more about that experience because quite honestly, it's probably the only way I'm going to learn is to go to an immersive camp. So can you share with me just that the experience you had at the camp and then what it was like to learn?

Brent: It was so fun. And the backstory behind this is, I like you. I never owned a surfboard, but I had friends that went to college in California. And so when we'd go visit them, they'd take us out and I would just fumble through it. And I'd struggled so much just to get beyond the break, just get out into the water and the techniques and all of that.

So I just let it go. But I was always fascinated by the community behind surfing because I saw some friends that surf on a regular basis, and it's like very communal to them. It's very important. They've got a handful of friends and they're very connected through surf. And then I liked the skill.

I liked the flow and all that. So what we decided to do as a family is my kids were curious about it. About a year ago, we went to San Diego for a week and we rented a house, near the beach and we rented surfboards for the week. And they said, Hey, we're just going to figure it out. Well, they struggled all week long.

And then I don't know if either of them really got up. I went out for all of twenty minutes and I'm like, this is a lost because for me. I'm like, I have no idea what I'm doing. So fast forward to this summer is we decided as a family of four, we're going to go to a surf camp and we'd heard about a place called Surf Synergy in Costa Rica. And it's a week long immersion program where you learn how to surf, but it's not just the art of surfing.

It's a lot of things around it. It's the lifestyle. So you're going to learn meditation and yoga and eating well and getting together with the community of surfers that are associated with this camp and your instructors. And it's a really integrated experience. But what I can tell you is you learn first day you get out and you may have successes, which I did right out of the gates.

I'm like, I can do this. And then your guide who you have a dedicated guide every single day, the same instructor. And they'll say, okay, do you want to go further out? And I'm like, of course I want to go further out. And then

Rob: I just got- I got this.

Brent: Yeah. And then I just got abused, right? I was just like, I can't get up. What am I doing? But what's cool about it is they videotape you and all your fellow surfers all week long.

And every evening, you review the videos with the group. So you'll see my two kids. I mean, they got up right away and they just, they almost felt like they're naturals. And I was forewarned of that going in there like, your kids are going to be way better than you. Like, what?

Of course they are. So they videotape you and they give you feedback and then you incorporate it into the next day and then the next day. And it was a really interesting way to learn something new because you've got professionals that are there to help you through the journey. They challenge you from pushing you, but they're also very respectful of what's your risk tolerance. They take you to a place that has all sorts of water characteristics that maybe somebody that's a little bit more advanced might go to a different part of the beach or a different part of the and somebody's a beginner is going to stay in this area.

And they allow you to naturally grow in the process. So from day one to day six, it's completely different. Like you are a transformed person and you can now learn, like you've learned a new skill. Now, what I will say is I have a long ways to go because what they do in the water is that your instructor's with you on a surfboard, and a lot of times they're helping you read the water. They're helping you understand the currents.

They're teaching you how to actually get back out through the surf, and that can be challenging. And there's all these things that come together. And the moment they say, why don't you try this on your own? It's challenging. Just paddling to catch away was really hard.

My kids did it really well. I just struggled with that. So there's so many techniques, but it just made me more hungry. Yeah. Like I want to do it again and again and again.

And what was interesting about the experience is biggest transformation for me in this process of learning a new skill surfing is understanding the energy of the water and trying to work with that energy, not against it. So as an example is you'd watch the instructors just stand on the beach and look at the water before going in. And what they're essentially doing is they're looking at the flow of the currents and they could say paddling out over here, maybe 20 feet to your left is going to be easier than dead ahead because watch the waves come in and look how they circle and then it pushes back out. It's going to be that much easier. The same thing with the energy of the waves coming at you when you're going to surf, they're like, that one is cresting way too fast And it's just going to crash on you because the energy was built up a different way than something that's going to be a little bit longer release.

That's what you want at this stage in your learning journey. So I didn't know that. And I spent the first few days fighting all that. And it was me just being brute force. I can do this.

And they'd say, you're working too hard. I'm like, what do you mean? And they're like, you're trying too hard on all aspects of this, and here's why. And then once you start to watch them, you're like, oh, that's how it works. So it was really cool.

I highly recommend it. And, you know, a teaser that you and I can throw out because you and I just got both excited about this is we're currently exploring partnering with Surf Synergy to bring a group of our listeners out there, maybe next summer. So that might be something cool, a retreat that we can do with some of our loyal listeners.

Rob: Yeah. You mentioned this, when you got back, Brent, that you wanted to go right back to that place. You wanted to go back again. And I know we're talking about maybe even a couple of trips in the next year. One question for you though.

As I as you think about the learning process, I don't want you to go into the weeds on the learning process. What I want you to go through is the energy from the beginning of the week to the ending of the week. And how did it feel to having learned a new task? What was that energy inside of you? What was that like as you went from being, never having really done it before is what I would categorize you.

I categorize me as this to now being somewhat able to serve. Tell me a little about what that did for your energy and your emotion.

Brent: That's a great question. For me, it went from anxiety to slight confidence, not overconfidence, not complete confidence, but it was confidence in the sense like, I think I have the basics figured out. I still need a lot of work, but I started out with anxiety because I'm looking at these waves and it's interesting when you see them on video that they just don't look that big. But when you tumble in a few of them, you're like, that hurt? Or that is like, what just happened?

Like, why did I just not catch that wave? So there was anxiety and just like that learning a new skill. Mother nature's powerful. And they put you in a position where you're safe. There's always going to be risk with trying new things, especially when you're in the open water and there's, you know, waves and things like that.

So I always felt like I was safe, but it was anxiety. Am I going to be able to pick this up? And then it transformed into confidence. Like, I picked it up and my energy just went through the roof. I just like I said, I want more.

And what I was really curious about and where I ex want to explore more of is the surfing culture.

Rob: And I'm guessing some of the excitement that you got at the end of it and the elation that you felt came from the dopamine hits that you were getting on a regular basis as you had some levels of success. Right? So you had that dopamine hit, and they talk about it in that show Limitless. They talk about the dopamine cycle and how, how we get a little bit immune to this as we get older. But that dopamine hit, you want more of that.

And that's what I'm hoping with this learning list is I can hack my system a little bit, get the dopamine hits a little bit more often that make me feel good and make me hungry to actually get more of it and to crave more and to crave more opportunities to have that breakthrough.

Brent: Yeah. And what they talked about in Limitless, which I didn't know was how dopamine is released more frequently, or it's easier to access as a kid. And then as we become an adult, it starts to pull back. There's a number of reasons why, because we look at risk very differently. And so what was really fascinating is to watch how my kids approach the experience of surfing versus me and my wife.

And we all approached it differently. Their mentality is go for it. My mentality was interesting. I'll go for it. I know it's going to be challenged.

My wife's was different as well. So what's interesting when you say dopamine, it's not the dopamine that we're talking about from an addiction standpoint. It's a dopamine to say, wow, when you learn something new, you do get that jolt. And when you have those successes along the way, you're like, I like that feeling. This is great.

I accomplished something new. And it's something I didn't If I went back three or four years, I didn't think I would go to a surf camp. It wasn't even really on my register. I would say my kids were the strong promoter of it just because they had their curiosity. And then sometimes I just follow their curiosities to say, is that something I want to do?

But I like how you describe it. You know, that dopamine hit of trying something and succeeding at it. It's pretty cool when you get on a surfboard and you stand up maybe your third or fourth time, so you've now proven that you can do it. It's a really cool feeling because you're gliding on water. It's amazing.

Rob: Yeah. Now, Brandon, as you went through my 50 list, I gave you a layup and an opportunity to make fun of me that you didn't jump on yet today between what we've talked about so far and some of the other items on the list. I know we're going to post a list for everybody to reference if they want to use this as a starting place, or you can go look up Jesse Itzler's list. But I told you that I had I in middle school, I learned how to juggle.

Brent: Yes.

Rob: And on my list is learning to ride a unicycle. So I pretty good layup that you could have called me the clown of the midlife circus, but I I'll

Brent: do it myself. Knew that.

Rob: Okay. I'll give it away myself that I'm the clown of the midlife circus, that I'm going to ride a unicycle. I got one for my birthday, so I do have a unicycle sitting in the garage, and I've fallen on it twice already.

Brent: So wait a minute. So are you going to actually try to ride unicycle and then eventually juggle with it too?

Rob: Yes. That's not on the list though. Just riding a unicycle's on the list, but yes, I will try to juggle while riding a unicycle.

Brent: Can you still juggle?

Rob: Yes.

Brent: How many balls or objects are you able to three. Three.

Rob: Okay. Three balls, or I do have a set of juggling clubs, and I can get about 10 rounds on a set of

Brent: juggling clubs. What's a juggling club?

Rob: So it's colorful things. It's the pre it's the precursor to juggling with knives. You juggle with a club. It looks like a bowling pin. Look at like small bowling pin.

Brent: Okay.

Rob: That's a club. Yeah.

Brent: Okay. I I've never learned how to juggle. Like, I  always think, like, I've got this coordination. I'm athletic. And then I'll pull out two and I kind of okay.

Great. And then I throw a third and it's just bumble city. Just kidding.

Rob: Well, you should put that on your list then, learning how to juggle.

Brent: Maybe I will. So back to the unicycle. So I remember you telling me that you got that for your birthday. Now you're sharing that you've crashed twice. How are you learning the unicycle?

Rob: So I watched a couple YouTube videos, which it can be helpful and not. And then it's just a matter of going out and looking dumb and falling a lot right now. Luckily, I haven't gotten hurt, so I am go out there wearing a helmet. We'll see how often I fall as I start to learn this. But supposedly, the progression is you first sit on it, you hold onto a railing, and you try and ride holding onto a railing.

And didn't realize this, but to ride a unicycle, when you start pedaling forward, it throws your weight backwards. And so you got to learn how to lean forward while pedaling forward, which is just a little counterintuitive. So I'm going to walk through a progression. I've tried it just a couple of times, landed on my butt too often, and I said, I'm going to take a little bit of a break. I'll come back to this later.

But I'm watching a progression on YouTube.

Brent: So this brings up an important point. Often when we're learning things become awkward. And if you're a type A person, as an example, I know I am, I don't like to fail. And part of learning is that failure process. So as you've navigated this list, and I know a few things have been in the works for even prior to this list, how are you navigating that awkwardness of being a novice or failing multiple times?

So you talked about the sourdough, but there's other things. Like, what are you doing to keep the list active versus just saying, I don't want to do this. I couldn't write it the first time. I'm out. Yeah.

Rob: I'm embracing looking dumb and laughing a lot, Brent. That's the only thing I can do. I mean, so when the bread came out as a hockey puck and I tried to put butter on it and melt butter into the bread, I just laughed and threw it away. And so, nope. I can't even eat this.

And laughter the release of laughter for me has helped me just get past the emotion of, you know, the soundtrack in my own head really is what it is that you can't do this or you shouldn't do this or maybe there's something better you can do with your time. These things I put on the list are just are meant to be fun, and I'm trying to approach it in a way that's fun. And while I might look foolish, doing it right now in the unicycle at some point, I'll be able to ride it and juggle, and I'll show you all of that, and I can show off and get the dopamine hit from being a performer. I'm kidding a little bit right there. But the approach I'm taking is to just make fun of myself, embrace Tara making fun of me about all of these activities.

So my wife Tara laughing at me for doing stupid stuff. She's decided she wants to try to do some of these things like ride a unicycle so we can look dumb together, which is a lot easier.

Brent: Just invite me over when that happens. I want to be a part of that.

Rob: Well, I hope do I hope that I learn it first or do I hope that she learns it first? That's the thing is, if I if she learns it first, she's just going to sit there and make fun of me. If I learn it first, I think she's going to be upset with me. So I'm probably better off letting her figure it out first, I guess.

Brent: Let's just be honest. She'll probably figure it out first.

Rob: She probably will. She's a better athlete anyway. Yeah. So, again, for me, it's embracing the vulnerability, laughing about it, making fun of it as much as I can, and, saying there's a longer opportunity. I’ve got ten years to learn these things.

I don't have to learn it tomorrow. I don't have to learn it next week. I got the next ten years of process to learn these.

Brent: So as we wrap up today, we started the conversation out saying there's a couple of takeaways that we wanted our listeners to walk away from. Number one is the importance of having a list of things to learn, and that is a time filler. So you make this transition into retirement, semi-retirement, whatever you want to call it, and you're going to need things to fill the void. And this is a great way to help fill the void. The other thing is the scientifically proven importance of learning new skills, and that's just part of longevity.

So why don't you take us to the end here of our conversation and talk to our listeners about how do you start? How do you start tackling the list? What are some techniques that you've done? Because you can look at something, 50 items, and you're like, well, I could do this, I could do this, I could do this. So it may just not happen, but what's a way that somebody can just start doing something?

Rob: So I think we learn as kids, from infant all the way up until I think we start our working lives, that curiosity is a good thing. We expand our boundaries. Right? I think I read a post on Instagram a few weeks ago, Brent, that said, generation x. Just remember, you're the reason for all these warning labels.

Right? So think about it growing up. We pushed boundaries in our generation. We learn new things. We forced ourselves to learn new things because we kind of had to learn new things growing up.

And the easiest thing I think people can do is to start just increasing that curiosity muscle a little bit. So we mentioned a show called Limitless. Be curious and watch the program. Watch the show. That's pretty simple.

Just sitting on the couch watching TV. And try to look for what things might you be curious about. My list has a combination of artistic items. It has a combination of physical items. It has a number of mental items on my list.

But what things are you curious about doing or learning in your life? Whether you're retired or you're going into retirement or you're years away from retirement, where do your curiosities land today? And then put it on a piece of paper. Put it on a put it on your iPhone. List it list create a list of things you're curious.

You don't have to do all of them right away, but just start creating a curiosity list for yourself. And then the next step is to pick one or two or in my case, I'm trying to do five this year that I'm going to start the process of. It start the process of learning. And I'm not starting to master anything from day one. In fact, there's only a couple things in this list that I want to be able to master doing.

Most of it's become proficient. So, like, learning Spanish. I'm not going to be a completely fluent in Spanish, but I want to be able to be very proficient that when we travel, I can actually get around and do almost anything traveling in a in a Spanish speaking country, hold my own, and get around and communicate with anybody I need to. Mastering Spanish is probably something that I won't be able to do in my lifetime. So getting over the fact that I'm leaving a career, I'm doing a job that I pretty much have mastered or, you know, I'm still learning to do, but when I left it, I was at the top of my game.

I think when you left, you were at the top of your game, and it's easy to say, I know what I'm doing here. And to take a step back and say, I don't have to be the best at this, but it's something I'm going to learn to get better at every day, every week, every month, and just create a proficiency here.

Brent: I like that, Rob, because that just helped me. You know, I've got this list that I've been starting to formulate, and thank you for the encouragement to do this. And part of it is I don't have to be a master because sometimes things aren't making my list because I'm like, well, geez, I don't want to be like a pro at that. I just want to learn how to do it. And so that's helpful to hear it.

And I like how you said, you have ten years to do this.

Rob: What you'll find, I think what I'm hoping to find is that as I accomplish one, I'm hungry for the next. And it excites me for the next one. And actually, I'm guessing that it's going to speed up the process of learning all 50 of them because I'm going to be excited to learn the next one as one gets checked off.

Brent: This is great. Alright. Well, thanks, everybody. Appreciate you joining us on this episode, and we'll see you next time.

Lena: That's it for this episode of Midlife Circus. Visit midlifecircus.fm for show notes, transcripts, and all the latest happenings. And while you're there, be sure to sign up for our newsletter so you never miss an update. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts so you never miss your next great act. Before we go, a quick reminder.

The opinions and stories shared here are just that, personal reflections and perspectives. We're not legal experts, medical professionals, or therapists. This show is for entertainment and inspiration only, so please seek the right professionals when you need guidance. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you under the big top next time. Midlife Circus is a Burning Matches Media production.