Episode 06: Navigating Loneliness In Midlife

In this conversation, Rob and Brent explore the often-overlooked topic of loneliness, particularly as it relates to midlife transitions. They share personal experiences of navigating loneliness after career changes, the importance of vulnerability, and the value of seeking help through therapy. The discussion also delves into the evolution of friendships, distinguishing between 'real friends' and 'deal friends,' and the difference between solitude and loneliness. Ultimately, they emphasize the importance of connection and the proactive steps one can take to foster relationships and combat feelings of isolation.

Links, resources, books mentioned:

• Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World That Can’t Stop Talking - Susan Cain

(This post includes affiliate links. As an Amazon Associate, we may earn a small commission if you purchase through these links—at no extra cost to you.)

Topics we are covering in this episode:

• Loneliness can creep in at different points in life, especially during transitions.

• Navigating loneliness can be challenging, particularly after leaving a career.

• Seeking help and being vulnerable is crucial in overcoming loneliness.

• Therapy can serve as a performance coach to help individuals navigate their feelings.

• It's important to recognize the difference between solitude and loneliness.

• Building and maintaining friendships requires effort and intention.

• Not all friendships will transition from work to personal life; some may fade.

• Embracing solitude can be healthy, but too much can lead to loneliness.

• Putting yourself out there is essential for building new connections.

• Change can be tough, but surrounding yourself with supportive people can ease the journey.

Transcript:

Transcript Disclaimer - May contain the occasional confusing, inaccurate, or unintentionally funny transcription moment. It’s all part of the show.

Lena: When life's moving fast, being alone can feel like peace. But when it slows down, that same quiet can feel like something else entirely. In this episode of Midlife Circus, Rob and Brent get honest about loneliness, the kind that creeps in when the kids move out. The meetings stop, and the noise fades. They share stories of transition, friendship, and finding connection again, not by filling the silence, but by learning to listen to it.

Let's dive into Navigating Loneliness in Midlife.

Rob: Brent, what's a surprising situation where you made a new friend?

Brent: Recently, I was mountain biking on a local trail, and I ran into a guy that I've met a number of times, and he happened to be the middle school gym teacher for my kids. And he and I got to chatting. He's since retired, and he's off doing some other cool projects. And I've known that he's a really good mountain biker for some time. I've never ridden with him.

And he asked me, hey, you want to go mountain biking? I said, sure. So about a week later, we met up and he took me on a trail that I'd only been on once. And it was super fun, and he was a great, like, tour guide tour guide for me. So that was a lot of fun.

Yeah. And he and I just connected, and we had a lot in common, and he loves the outdoors. Talk about the next great act. I mean, he's built this beautiful life around what interests him, what interests his wife, his kiddo, is often married, and he just he's doing things he wants to do, but he's an incredible mountain biker. He's in his sixties.

And I have a funny part to the story. So he was leading the way, and all of sudden, I see him stopped on the trail in front of me. And I turn this corner and I just pull up. And I he's off his bike, and he comes to me. He's, like, giving me the slow down quiet kind of signal.

So I did, and he goes, four bears just crossed the trail. I'm like, what? Really? Yeah. So it was a mom and three cubs that came from this creek and went straight up, and they crossed the trail right in front of him.

So he goes, we're going to have to wait here for a minute. And I'm like, okay. And I've seen bears. You and I saw a bear. What remember that bear you and I saw that one time?

We did. Yeah. Was huge, but we were on ebikes, so we could at least have a little bit of pedal power. So we wait a few minutes. And then he looks at me and he goes, we're going to have to go really fast for this next section.

Like, easy for you to say. He's actually experienced, and he's been on this trail a million times. And I'm like, okay. So and he and I have sent stacks back and forth, and so it was just really fun. He he's such an avid mountain biker.

He knows every trail in the entire community that we live in. Every trail. And he's like, oh, I helped build that one, and I helped design the structures, you know, retain walls on that one and all these things. But super nice guy. I've known him because of through my kids as a teacher, but then he and I just connected.

So I called my friend.

Rob: Just randomly out in a trailer connected, and he said, hey. Let's go ride sometime together.

Brent: Yeah. Yeah. Was a lot of fun too, and then we had the bear encounter.

Rob: And then you had a bear encounter, and I'm surprised you guys just didn't turn around and go back the other direction. That's what you and I did when we were on our ebikes and saw the bear. And we said, I think our ride's over today, and we'll head back.

Brent: Yeah. That was funny because I when I saw that bear, Rob, that thing was huge. And he I was like, is that a cow? And you're like, I think it's a bear. And we're like, oh, it's a bear.

It was so big. And we're like, okay. Time to turn around. Ride is done. Let's go home.

Rob: Oh, well, that, that helped us segue a little bit into our conversation today, Brent. And I'm going to first off, thank you for bringing this topic to the table. This is, this topic may be the precipice of where this podcast started in the first place, way back in March when you, when you and I were having breakfast and you put this put this topic on the table. Today, we're going to be talking about part of midlife that not a lot of people talk about, and I would say mostly men don't ever talk about this, loneliness. And how loneliness can creep in at different points in our life, especially as we age.

It can happen as, you know, as early as your twenties and thirties, but I think a lot more often it happens as we get a little bit older, as we start moving on from careers, as some of those connections we had made in the past start to fade a little bit because we haven't stayed in contact with people as much as we wanted to. So today's going to be a really candid conversation, I hope, around that feeling that we get sometimes when the noise stops and our awful brain starts to kick in with, self talk and issues that, that we may not want to address or bring to the table. So first off, just thank you, Brent, for bringing this to the table. And let's go back, let's go back to March a little bit of earlier this year. You and I were out at breakfast down at the diner, and I know that's one of our guilty pleasures is not breakfast, but diner food.

I love a really good greasy hash browns and eggs with a side stack of pancakes. I think that's our normal meal that we get when we're down there. But you brought up a conversation with me and you shared something with me about how you're personally dealing with loneliness at the time. You want to tell us about your experience with loneliness when you transitioned into semi retirement?

Brent: Thank you. I think this is a really important topic and it's tough for me to talk about because it's I would say I'm dealing with it as much as I am now. But if I go back to when I left my last company, I'm going a 100 miles an hour at my company. And it's just alive. So much daily interaction with people.

And these are all coworkers and colleagues, and we're just doing a lot of great things together. So I had this 100 mile an hour lifestyle related to my career. I also had both of my kids at the house at that time. So shortly after I had left my company, I was navigating what was going to be my next great act, did no idea what I was going to do. And a few months later, my oldest son went off to college for the first time.

So I was just lonely. And lonely for me creeps into depression. And how I felt it is I was so used to interaction. It was just a built in mechanism in my life, interaction with my kids, interaction with friends, interaction with my work colleagues. But I took a couple of pieces out of my daily routine.

And the most impactful was my work because that was a really intense job that I had. I was running a private equity firm, an investment firm, and we had a team and we were growing and there was a lot of activity. So I had built in interactions every single day. And then I took that human equation out. And then shortly after that, one of my kids goes away to college.

So I just felt like I was on an island by myself. And I was really, really uncomfortable. And you were the first person. I talked to my wife about it. I talked to you and I talked to one other friend.

And then I talked to a few other family members about it, just kind of this progression because I didn't know what to do. I didn't know how to navigate it. And it was incredibly challenging for me because it was from 100 mile an hour down to zero, it felt like, and I felt stuck. I just felt like I was just by myself and I caught myself retreating into it versus trying to overcome it, retreating backwards, meaning just getting more and more isolated. And I don't know what drives that in human behavior.

And I don't know why I did that. But I found myself seeking isolation versus seeking connection. And I can't understand that because that's in hindsight, it's more of a state of misery at that moment in time. Kept pulling back, pulling back. I was less interested in connecting with people.

I was less interested in finding my next great act. I was just interested in I watched a lot of TV. You know? I I just I just was lonely, the best way to put it.

Rob: And it's interesting the way in which you just described it because I knew you during that period of time. And in fact, we've talked about that period of time quite a bit here in in this podcast. And during this time from the outside, from my perspective, you seemed really busy to me and very active. You had just reduced the number of initiatives from 18 to five, and you were going to be launching five separate entities, five separate businesses. When you shared it with me, were pretty excited about launching these businesses.

You seemed really busy. You seemed energized when we interacted. So it's somewhat surprising that that energy was it a mask? Were you were you still energized by those pieces of work just missing a part of you? What was can you maybe define that a little bit more for us?

Brent: So when you said I came up with 18 ideas as my next great act, like things that I could do, write a book, start another investment firm, do some executive coaching, and so forth. I had all these ideas, and I narrowed it down to five. But what I was doing was, you said it, being busy. That was my anecdote. Like, that was my way of kind of trying to navigate loneliness.

But what was missing is everything that I was doing was a sole effort. It was just me. And I was used to doing things with other people, start a business with somebody else, build a team. Like human interaction was always part of my equations in my past, but everything that I started to do was a solo endeavor. So I started writing a leadership blog.

That's just me. I started doing exit planning. That's just me. Now you have people that you work with, like an exit planning business and so forth. But on the business side, it was me as a solo entrepreneur.

So everything I started crafting was isolated to just me. And it was just promoting loneliness because I was I was there's parts stubbornness there. I didn't necessarily want to go build a big team again. I didn't necessarily want to take on lots of clients. So part of it was by design.

I just didn't know how impactful that would be to my mental health. Just retreating to isolation for me is just proved to be a recipe for depression. And that's essentially what I was doing. And I remember distinctly talking to you at the diner, and I was very candid. I'm like, I am lonely, man.

Like, I am just feel like I'm just doing everything to retreat. And I remember talking to you about it. I don't think it was necessarily a cry for help. It was just a cry for an outside independent view of my world. And what was interesting the way you just described it to me is, yeah, Brent, you looked active, you looked happy, you looked all these things.

And absolutely, was putting on this facade. I wouldn't say I was intentionally putting it on. I wasn't trying to fool anybody, but that was my way of saying you're happy. You're happy. You're doing all these things.

But it was beneath the surface, I just felt really, really vulnerable, really lonely. Depression was starting to take place. I just knew that it was dark times at times. I just felt by myself too much.

Rob: Well, thank you for having the balls to have that conversation. I think it does take guts and, wherewithal within yourself to have that type of conversation with somebody else. I feel honored that you had that conversation with me and we were able to start maybe in exploring other options for us. It's interesting as we talk about loneliness as two middle aged men, a demographic that probably doesn't ever share their feelings or rarely shares personal feelings, and so it hit me kind of out of the blue, not anticipating that you're going to have that conversation. And I don't know that it's necessarily isolated to us in middle age, but it, it definitely can grow because of some of the life situations and circumstances that come up, becoming an empty nester, transitioning, out of work and into a full or semi retirement lifestyle.

Those typically go hand in hand or close to each other within a few years of each other, so it's hard to maybe adjust over a period of time. And in in preparation for this episode, I started thinking about, you know, kind of did I have that same feeling? And I honestly, I didn't, and I'm not trying to brag. It was just maybe a little bit different circumstance when I made the transition that that I purposefully spent time with other people. I wasn't trying to find work.

I wasn't trying to replace work, but I had you that had already retired, and I started filling time with trying to replace it with spending time with my brother, which I know you've done a bunch recently as well, is spending time with your brother. The only thing I can think back to, and this is where loneliness can find its way in at different points in life, is back to my early forties, so maybe early midlife. And I was turning around the region and running a geography out in the Pacific Northwest. And it'd been a poor performing geography, I was brought in to come in and fix it. I distinctly, And as we started talking about this episode in particular, I remember a period of time or a situation where I was curled up on the floor just balling because of feeling isolated and alone and not being able to talk with anybody about it.

Everyone that worked around me either worked for me. I did not let a lot of people in on the emotions that I was feeling or dealing with. I was trying to change a culture and an environment from a performance standpoint and do it different than other people had done it before. I think a lot of leaders and people that get into senior executive type of roles end up dealing with this. I had a mentor a long time ago that says, be careful of that next job.

It's a lonely one. And you end up, doing things by yourself from a business standpoint. And so while I didn't have it as, as I entered, semi retirement, I understood the feeling that you were going through, having felt it ten years prior and having extreme loneliness at a period of time in my life when I I needed to have a friend to reach out. And I wish I had spent more time talking to you during that period of time.

Brent: When you were navigating that, I feel what you just described, like crawling up in that little ball and crying. And it's really interesting as a male. That's not what we're taught to do.

Rob: Not at all.

Brent: And we're taught to fight through it, be tough, don't show your emotions. I mean, I grew up in a household where I think I cried three times that I can remember through even almost adulthood. Because when my mother passed away, my father passed away, and I had a really kind of catastrophic sports injury that took me out of football for her life. I just blew out my knee pretty late in my senior season. And I just remember like, that's strange.

Like to know that I didn't show emotion much, and I've lost a lot of friends from growing up. And I was always just like the rock, like hold yourself together, be strong for other people. And I think there's validity there. I think being strong for other people is one thing, but when came to me, I didn't know what to do. I didn't know how to process the emotion.

And I actually seek help. I got a therapist for a while and that was really, really helpful. That took me some serious guts to do that because I always felt maybe the negativity or the stigmatism that comes with, you're going to seek help from a professional, just figure it out on your own. I mean, I've read so many books, Rob. So many books on these topics because that's my way of navigating the world as I typically will read and read.

So if I want to learn a new topic, I might read 20 books on that subject. And so I read so many books, but it wasn't overly helpful for me because I needed to interact with another human being. And then when I talked to you, talked to other friend, talked to my wife, talk to therapists, like everybody was triangulating it back to some simple things. And I needed to do that, but it was so crippling for me. It was so strange just going through that.

And I'm just reflecting back. I have a quick story that I haven't told anybody before. Let me just pause real quick. So I decided to take on, and you were a part of this journey. So I decided to do the rim to rim to rim run-in the Grand Canyon.

48 miles hard. And what I did is part of doing that was to occupy my time. And that was a necessary step. I needed something to wake up to. And when you're training for something like that, for me specifically, I've never done anything that extreme.

I mean, 48 miles, eighteen hours, it was a big day for us, Yumi and Jeff. And so I knew that I needed to really train and prepare myself for this. It wasn't one of those things that I can just I can gut out a lot of things in life. That was one thing I can't gut out because it's too much. It's too big and you can really hurt yourself.

And I've talked jokingly, like you can die down in that valley.

Rob: People do every year.

Brent: Yeah. And it's because it's so hot. It's so extremes. I mean, I don't what was our vert for that whole thing? Think it was

Rob: 11,000 feet of up hill.

Brent: Yeah. 11,000 feet of up hill. So it's just a lot. So I remember going on one of my training runs, and it was a big day for me. It was a 30 mile run.

And I decided to do a trail slash Jeep road that I've done parts of it, but it's really hard. And so it's behind the house. I did it intentionally as an out and back because I felt like that's probably the safest route for me because there's things that can happen as you know, in the wilderness like that. So I was like, a loop is a little bit different, but this was a way that I could actually know that once I hit 15 miles, I can just flip it and come back.

Rob: And if something happened before then, could turn around and come back and you only have half the distance back. Right? You had the same distance back. So if you get so far away, you know exactly how far to get home. Yeah.

Brent: Yeah. So I'm on this run, and I'm probably, like, 12 miles in, and then I get to a section where they've done a lot of clear cut of the forest for various precautionary for forest fires and things like that. It was newly cut within the last year-ish. So I'm going through this cut down wilderness. So I was amongst the trees for miles, amongst tall trees.

And the metaphor here was I was amongst the people. Then when I got to the clear cut section, I felt so different because I felt alone. I felt isolated because there was no people, there were no trees. And I was in the forest and I was happy in the forest. But when I got to the trees, everything was dead.

You know where I'm talking about where that's at. They cut everything down and it's such mass destruction. And it felt like it was a correlation in my life. Like I was amongst the forest of people and interacting with this healthy forest. And then I made it to this new area that was completely chopped down and I had nobody to interact with.

That's how I felt. So I was walking through that clear cut, and I was just like, and it's a big swath of land. So I'm going through the whole thing, and there's all these signs like, Don't go in there. And I'm like, I don't care, I'm going in.

Rob: Forget about directions and rules. And

Brent: I just was up there and I was just kind of going from stump to stump. And I was just kind of wandering, I'm like, But there's nothing alive here. Because it was at the early stage where there was no growth happening. And it felt like me. I felt like I was alone in that clear cut.

And I just remember that so vividly. And it was tough. And I think that was probably almost a turning point for me because I had to recognize where I was at. And the realization was I spent about an hour and a half in the clear cut, in the cut down forest. I actually was just walking around at that point in time.

I just walked kind of just stump to stump, and I was just kind of exploring it, but I was exploring the psychology that was going on in my head too. And what I realized is it wasn't hard for me to turn around and go back to the forest and go back to the people. That's what I experienced through that. The forest is right around us. There's people, it's alive.

Those are healthy forests up there. So there's so much going on. There's deer, there's bears, there's all sorts of stuff, mountain lions, things like that. But it's nature and it's alive. And that was my reference point.

Like, I could stay in this clear cut forever. And that's the void. Like I could just allow myself to stay here and dig deeper and sink deeper into this loneliness, abyss. Or I could step out and I could go straight through the clear cut in back into the forest that way I could retreat back into the forest that I just came from. But the cool thing is I was surrounded three sixty by a healthy forest.

I just needed to go to it. And I realized when I was up there, now that wasn't a healer for me. It wasn't a healer like I left that forest and got done with my 30 mile run. I'm like, I'm back to not being lonely and I'm feeling great. It was a realization that I just have to make the steps myself to get back to the forest, to get back to the connection of humans and people.

And I needed to commit to that. I wasn't overnight for me. I mean, that was six months. Actually, it was about nine months before I talked to you. Cause Yeah.

I was in the summertime and you and I talked in March. So that was a big chunk of time, but I realized like, I got to work through this. I got to get back to the forest. I got to get back to human interaction. Cause I can sink into this loneliness further and further and further, and I was pulling myself into the loneliness.

So it was a turning point in the acknowledgement. But the realization I had on that moment in time, Rob, was there was a lot of work ahead of me. Like, I needed to I needed to own this one, and it was not easy for me.

Rob: Yeah. Wow. That's a really powerful story and metaphor as I as I think about it. And one of the things I'm going to circle back to something you said that you did and something that you you've actually said this a couple of times, Brent, to me. This goes back even a few years, was talking about therapy.

And you're right. We're a generation that didn't embrace it early on. That's something that's about new generations are embracing therapy and seeking it out, which hopefully we can all learn from because there is such benefit in that. And our generation came from a place of if you display weakness, that's the vulnerability everybody's going to pick on for the next two, five, ten years of your life. Right?

You don't like a nickname? That's your new nickname forever and we're going to tattoo it all over you. Right? You, you, you, you fell down and you got hurt and you cried when you got hurt. Only wimps do that.

And, and especially as men, we were vicious with each other growing up, at times. And one of the things you shared with me years ago, which I took to heart and I sought out is therapy. And the phrase you used was performance coach. And you said, know, you think about a therapist, not just as a place where people go that need help, get help, I think is how you phrased it to me. Think of a a therapist as a performance coach to get the best out of you.

And that changed my paradigm a little bit to go seek out the help that I needed at a period of time in my life, similar to what we're talking about today, to go seek out help and get professional help to walk through it because just like you talked about, it could have been a spiral, and it was up to me to take that first step, up to you to take that first step. I could have kept spiraling in a in a direction, but that's not how you or I are wired or how we tick. We try and fair, okay, how do we fix this? And I grade, you know, twenty, thirty books. I'll keep reading, reading, reading, but that's not always going to fix the problem.

And professionals are definitely a way to help. And retitling a therapist as a performance coach was the light bulb that went off for me to say, wait a second, I have this resource and my company paid for it actually. Surprisingly enough, I didn't my company offered it as a as a resource for us and a lot of companies do. Not very many people ever take care of or take advantage of this opportunity to go see someone that can actually help them get the best from themselves. Pretty incredible.

Brent: It was a game changer for me. I've always had executive coaches for probably the last, I don't know, ten or fifteen years of my career. So I was familiar with that. What I appreciated about the therapist that I worked with is he almost at the time exclusively worked with executive leaders and athletes. He said, You have such similar DNA because you're striving for the next great thing.

You're always pushing yourself and your individual performance. And what was interesting about my connection that I made with him was A, amazing listener, which is part of the process. Calling BS when it needs to be called. Because sometimes I, as a leader, can talk myself into the decisions that I'm making and rationalize it. That's part of what you have to do as a leader.

I was talking to an executive leader yesterday, actually. And I was telling her about the viewpoint. She's a CEO, large organization. And she was I just said, you're going to have to make tough decisions. And she knows that.

It wasn't anything surprising because she's got some decisions looming in the future that she has to deal with. And you're hired to make those decisions. But then as a leader, you rationalize your decisions and you talk yourself into it. So what my therapist was doing is like, So your retreat into isolation, is that a good decision? Well, I needed to do it because that's how I felt.

He goes, No, that's a terrible decision. He would just call me out. I actually needed that tough love. I can't expect you as one of my closest friends, my wife, my brother, my sister, other close friends to always call me out because I put so much pressure on them. And it's tough because I never want to jeopardize the amazing relationship you and I have as an example with telling you all of my dirty laundry.

I just needed to tell you so you understood where I was at. But you also were very helpful because you're an exceptionally good listener. And you're not going to give me solutions right out of the gate. And I appreciate that. Because sometimes you go to somebody and they're just, Oh, go do this.

And you're like, I don't know if I just want to be heard at that point in time. But the therapist is so independent from the network that that's their job, is to give you tough love when you need tough love. Give you soft gloves when you need soft gloves. I mean, that's what the good ones do. So it was something that was hard for me to sign up for, but incredibly rewarding.

And it was a boost of confidence by doing that because I made the decision to do that. It was my decision. And I'm glad that I did. And I always recommend it to people. I'm a huge advocate of therapy at this point going forward in my life for all ages.

One thing I want to point out that made it really challenging for me, and I think most people deal with this is the imposter syndrome that comes with social media. So when I left my career, I had a lot of accolades. I had a title, I had responsibilities, I had all these lofty titles and things that come with it. So the ego is floating pretty high. Then when you leave that behind, your identity takes a hit.

And my identity took a hit. And that's where this I just got lost. And everybody's going to go through it. When you leave something so significant behind, and it doesn't mean that you're an executive, it just means your job, for instance. If that's part of your identity, you go to a place every day, that's you leave it behind.

It's going to trigger something inside of you. Our goal is to share with people that this is normal. This is natural. And how you navigate it, each individual is going to have to navigate it in their own way. I just don't want you to avoid it.

I don't want people to go through what I went through and feeling so low for an extended period of time. I hope that this encourages people to think about the process, to think about help, think about your network, think about your real friends, the people that like you, where I could reach out to knowing that you're not going to judge me at all. You're just going to say, Hey, what can I do to help? That's what you did. Like you just said anything I can do to help.

I said, I remember vividly. I was like, I'm pretty like, I just want you to know. I know that this might come up again, and I don't want to catch you off guard. You're like, I'm game any day of the week. And that's all I needed at that moment in time.

Rob: I'm glad I didn't revert back to my 12 year old self and say, suck it up, buttercup. You know

Brent: how many times I told myself that, Rob? I always am like, Jesus, could you just suck it up? Yeah. Come on. Tell ourselves that a lot.

You've done a lot of tough things in your life. Just get over yourself. I did not I did not anticipate what I experienced at all. Like, was blindsided by this one and it was a tricky one to navigate. But I do say several months removed, I feel exceptionally better.

Like, I feel good. And part of it was allowing myself the opportunity or when I mentioned social media, don't get too caught up on what's going on in LinkedIn, if that's my professional side of things. LinkedIn is people talking about great things about themselves. I get it. It's a platform.

It's a network. There's a lot of amazing things that you can get out of it. But when you're out of it, out of the workforce, like the way I used to be and the way I'm now today, I'm more passively in LinkedIn. I was trying to be active, but I just felt like, gosh, that person got a promotion. Gosh, that person's doing this.

Then I'm like, what the hell am I doing? Nothing. So the key there is turn it off.

Rob: I'm going to go back and challenge something you said, though, during this period of time, and that there was you said no growth was happening, Brent. And I actually have a tattoo commemorating that growth actually happens in challenging situations and difficult situations. And so I'm going to go back to your analogy that you used was the, you know, standing in a clear cup where you could have gone back to the forest. You easily could have gone and taken a job someplace. You could have posted it on LinkedIn.

Look at how successful I am. I just took this job as a VP of this or a CEO or COO of that. Look at how great I am, and you didn't jump back into it. You could have replaced that loneliness with activity and friend and, deal friends, which we've talked about in previous episodes, but I'm going to commend you for the fact that you didn't. You didn't jump back in and do the thing that would have been easy and comfortable for you.

So going into the going to I'm going to segue a little bit into the deal friends and real friends conversation, and you could have because you could have gone back. You could have gone back and found a whole bunch more deal friends. How have your friendships evolved over the last couple of years and your real friends really changed?

Brent: A lot. I mean, they've evolved a lot because, a, I'm putting more effort into the relationships that count. And I don't want to put effort in I don't want to put a measuring stick for those that are listening to me like, Oh, I haven't talked to Brent in a year, therefore I'm not a real friend. That's not it. That's not it at all.

It's being available for people, which I typically in the past I wasn't, meaning, hey, you want to catch up? Sure. Usually it was in the past, it was like, oh, I'm slammed And that may or may not happen. So being available, being present is probably the greatest gift I've gotten from all of this is really challenge myself to be present with other people. So if we're going to go to lunch, be there as Brent, don't be there as the guy behind the device, checking my emails, checking what's going on, constantly distracted.

When I the And metaphor I used to the forest is a lot of those clear cut trees were my deal friends. Those are the ones that kind of went away. And those are the ones that I just didn't see that coming. And I read about it, heard about it, never thought it would happen to me, but and we've talked about it in previous episodes.

Rob: It's real. None of us none of us thinks it's going to happen to us.

Brent: No. You know, you think that all these people are just going to stick you're just going to stay tight forever, but you just don't have that commonality. That bond has been severed. And that's

Rob: And it's not their fault. It's not their fault. Like how you said, it's actually our fault to some extent, or we basically said our fault.

Brent: Yeah. No. We made a decision to move on. So your question of how have things evolved is I find that certain relationships have gotten a lot stronger because there's just a It's a two way street. I mean, they're interested, I'm interested.

You and I do a lot together. We're chatting all the time, not just with the podcast, but all the things that we've been doing the last couple of years. Our relationship's only gotten stronger because we now have we've always had common interests. That's what's drawn us together. But we're also doing things to challenge ourselves.

We're sharing experiences. We're planning trips well in advance, and we're just doing a lot of cool things. So those things get strengthened. Where I would say the biggest difference for me, Rob, is letting go of the deal friends that are just truly deal friends. Just let it go.

Doesn't mean that you can't reach out and say hi to somebody. That's not it at all. It just means that that relationship had a purpose and that purpose is no longer. That was the primary driver. I can tell you the people on the other side that are deal friends, of course, we'll catch up.

Of course, we still have things in common. It's just not the day to day that used to be. I needed to learn to let that go and realize I'm a part of the equation, but nobody's doing it intentionally. Absolutely not. And I needed to talk myself through that.

Therapy also helped me with that one. It's like, oh, people are moving on with their lives just the way you're moving on with your lives. And that's something that was hard for me to get my arms around, but it's rewarding now to know that he can let some relationships simmer. That's okay.

Rob: And to stop mourning them every time you look through LinkedIn. Absolutely. That's what I'm also hearing you were doing as well as you look at LinkedIn and you but not only see the successes that were happening with the people that you knew and still care about, but were consistently mourning that relationship loss. Yeah. And you kept reminding yourself of those people on a regular basis as you scroll through the list of people.

Oh my gosh. And again, it's not it's not on them. I don't believe it's on us. And it's the connections that change and fade over time and they change and fade and they come back at different points in our times too. I mean, there's people that I hadn't talked to in fifteen years that I've reconnected with, twenty-five years that I reconnect within the last couple of months.

And it's been incredibly rewarding connecting with a couple of those people and they reached out on LinkedIn. They saw I had gone through a major life change. And so I'm not saying we're not saying anything bad about social media. I'm not saying anything bad about, the comparison that can happen there to the extent that you own your part of it. It's not about them and what they didn't do.

It's about what we what we didn't do or what we can do now going forward. And I think, Brent, as you were talking about it, I want to be very, specific about this. Loneliness is very different than solitude. And I know there's a lot of times that you and I I'm an introvert for the most part. I force myself to be extrovert.

I do certain things that force interaction with other people at times, but one of my greatest joys is going out for a run completely by myself. You and I live a quarter mile from each other. We do big events together, but we rarely ever go out and run together. And that's because it's my place of solitude where I get to think, I get to reflect, I get to look at nature, I get to just be in myself. How do you see loneliness and solitude being different for you?

Brent: I like you. I'm introverted. And I have the ability to turn on the switch as Susan Cain in her book Quiet talks about it being an ambivert where I can morph into being an extrovert, but it takes a lot of energy and it takes a lot of, for me planning. So like an example, I'm going to an investment conference later this week. Those things are so for extroverts because it's meet people and socialize and network.

And I go into those with so much anxiety, but I know that I walk out of them typically energized. Energized and like, that was cool. I met a few new people and so forth. But as an introvert, I felt as if I was retreating into my own because that was a comfortable place for me because I do appreciate and I like solitude. Solitude for me doing a trail run, an eight-mile trail run is like the sweetest, happiest spot for me in most any activities I do.

Eight miles because I'm out there for, let's say, ninety minutes. And, you know, maybe that's fast for me. I don't know. Depending on the trail. It's all downhill.

Rob: The ninety minutes of this downhill only. Yeah.

Brent: But I love to do that. I like the solitude, and that's a given choice. Loneliness is, to me, creeped in when the solitude wasn't overly enjoyable because I was just so much by myself. I wasn't seeking solitude. I was just it was just a part of my every day because I lacked the social interaction.

So solitude and loneliness has a distinct difference. Solitude is my choice, but I also retreated into solitude more than I typically did in the past, and it was uncomfortable for me. So that's the difference that I have is I now know that having gone through this, and I appreciate what you I want to circle back to what you said earlier is I did make a decision not to just jump back into another career. There's plenty of opportunities I can go pursue, or at the time I could pursue, and I still can. I chose not to do that because I know I needed to navigate these waters.

I just didn't know the extent of it. So if I go back in my prior life, while I deepen my career, solitude is something I seek out because I needed it to recharge. I needed that space to think, because it was something special that I gave myself every week. But when solitude became the norm, then it started convert itself and transform into loneliness because I had too much solitude. Is that translating I mean, is that connecting with you the way I just want to make sure I'm answering the question.

Rob: Very much so. You kind of gave me a light bulb moment that when I think back to I, like you, sought out the solitude to recharge. It was a chance for me to get my head straight because of being on being, you know, being present from a work standpoint. I sought out the opportunity to almost turn the brain off and not actually veg out, but just refresh and you said recharge. So it's interesting when the intensity of the work that went away for you, and the need for the recharge solitude became pain cave almost, a place where you suffered in the solitude.

It wasn't something that you looked forward to getting, which I always look forward to, the solitude I was getting. You actually, were suffering in that solitude a little bit.

Brent: Yeah, just too much time by myself. And I'm back to a point where I love I'm back into being in love with an eight-mile run. But there were moments in time where I was training. I know I needed to do those runs. I knew I was going to do them by myself.

But when you go out and you're going to run 15 miles and you know you're going to be gone for a few hours, it was almost a little bit too much because it wasn't a retreat for me anymore. It wasn't something where I was being energized. It was almost just pulling me down further into my, you know, the abyss of just being too much by myself.

Rob: So as an introvert, Brent, do you think you need to become an extrovert to build a new community, or how would you go about doing that as an introvert?

Brent: I can only answer that question, the best way for me to answer that question is no, because I am not going to change my overall DNA. I'm in my midlife, so there's certain things that are just part of who I am, and I'm super comfortable being an introvert or an ambivert in many cases. But what I've had to do is put myself out there as I'm available, like going for the bike ride with my friend. Like, I normally wouldn't have done that because I already had something else planned, but that was something he extended the olive branch. I'm like, sure.

Like, saying yes to things that I enjoy with maybe people that I normally wouldn't do it with is something that I'm learning to be more and more comfortable with. And then also organizing, you and I are part of a group of guys that we get together, we call ourselves club, and organizing certain events. Like we're doing trail work together, that's part of volunteering, but we have a ton of fun. We go out to dinner. You wouldn't have caught me doing that four or five years ago.

Time was a limited factor and I didn't need, at least at the time, I had enough going on. But now it's part of why I do that is I really enjoy hey, the guys are awesome, like our buddies that we do this with, but that's part of my recharge too. That's part of that stimulation with other people that I really enjoy. So it's putting myself out there and leaning into that versus leaning out of it. My past life, I definitely would lean out a lot of that because I'm already socially connected in so many different ways.

But now I'm making the effort to just connect with people and saying yes to certain things that I wouldn't in the past. But I'm not saying yes to things that I don't enjoy. I want to make that very clear. Like, I I still have this good sense of the yeses and no’s of things that give me energy. So I'll say no to things that I'm not excited about.

But when somebody reaches out and says, hey. Do you want to go to the sporting event? And maybe in the past, I would be like, I need to just kind of chill on that Saturday. Like, sure. Let's do it.

And it it's just a whole different way. So I'm saying yes a little bit more, which is taking me out of my comfort zone, but it's incredibly rewarding in doing that.

Rob: When you say put yourself out there, it makes me think about, you know, growing up and asking a girl out on a date and the anxiety that I would get, when, you know, you you're not sure if what she's going to say, asking that, that person out, to go out on a date. At least we used to do that, actually, either on the phone or in person, not via text or, social media sites, but we'd actually ask people that in person. I still get that same anxiety as if I was asking a girl out on a date when I ask a guy out, you know, hey, you want to go for a bike ride sometime? Hey, you want to go do this? You have to put yourself out there.

You can't control the outcome of what the other person's going to do or say, and it's not on you what they do or say. It's you can only control what you can do, and it's having the guts to ask somebody, hey. Are you willing to go do this? Would you like to go do that? And waiting to see what the universe returns to you.

Brent: You described that. There were a few people that were I was connected with via my work. So we were what we call deal friends. And there was a few people in particular that I thought would transfer right over to the real friends bucket. One individual in particular, I reached out several times.

Hey. You want to go skiing? Hey, you want to go golfing? Hey, you want to go for a mountain bike ride? And I got crickets.

I mean, I get a response sometimes, but sometimes I wouldn't. And I just realized this individual is incredibly busy in their life. They're leading an organization. It's a high growth organization, and they have a lot going on. They also have kids.

They also have a life outside of work. And I was trying to insert myself in there. I don't beat myself up for that. I gave it a go. I don't take offense to it.

I don't think the person did it intentionally because I guarantee you, every time we connect, we have a great time. I just know there's a time limitation, and I only get the slot every couple of years. And I'm comfortable with that now. But when I was in my depths of just trying to navigate loneliness, I was reaching out certain people when I wasn't getting response. I was a bit hard on myself.

Be like, geez, maybe I was a jerk or maybe they don't want to hang out. I know better than that. Because I if I play back all the times we've hung out, there's zero signs that this wasn't fun on both sides. You can always go back to the emails or the texts that are afterwards like, Hey, that was a blast. Let's do it again sometime.

Most people are genuine about that. I just know that it is like you described. You have to keep trying. Retreating into isolation for me is not a great recipe. So if one friend isn't connecting, like doesn't have the time, reach out to another.

Create a new one. Join a club. Create a club. Like, do things that give yourself the opportunity to navigate this space. And it's something that is been rewarding for me to know that there's a lot of people out there that are happy to go do something.

Like, I'm going for a hike next week with a guy in Colorado. He lives, you know, a couple 100 miles, but we're going to meet in the middle. A couple 100 miles away, we're going to meet in the middle. And I've never done anything with him like that, but he and I have actually stayed connected since post the working relationship. So it's turning into real friends.

And we both said, wow, it'd be cool to go do a hike in this one community that's like right in the middle, has a bunch of great trails, and we're both psyched about it. So let's keep trying right there. Yeah.

Rob: As you were sharing that, we were in that same situation, Brent, as people left and retired or semi retired when we continued to work. And it we, I know I lost connections with a lot of those people. In fact, in in preparation for this call, I reached out to some of them just this week to say, hey. I just want to connect. It's been a long time.

Hope you're doing well. And left a couple of voice mails. Unfortunately, did not get to talk, but I got a couple of text messages back. People were excited about hearing my voice and wanting to connect again down the future, down the road a little bit at least. But it's about putting yourself out there, getting past the discomfort, so being okay with a little bit of the uncomfortableness of asking someone or trying to get together with someone where you might get turned out or you might not hear back from somebody.

And that is what the only thing we can control is giving it a try. We can't control what the outcome is going to be from the other side of the table, but we can control our own actions, which is giving it a try. Any final thoughts on our conversation today?

Brent: I want people to walk away from this conversation knowing that you can navigate to a better place. And anytime you make a change in your life, change can be hard. I thought I was bulletproof going into change. And a lot of my change that I've dealt with throughout my career is work related and I can just keep pushing through, pushing through, pushing through. Eventually you get to the other side.

Same thing here on my personal life. It was a tough road for me. I'm still so glad to know that I'm at where I'm at today because I went through that. You said it, like you learn what did I learn from it? I learned a ton about myself.

And I hope that as people navigate their next great act, that there is a community out there to support you. Rob and I are always here to support people through their journeys. And I'm speaking for both of us because this is why we started this podcast is to help navigate people's next great act. What's next? And knowing that there's going to be times when it's amazing and you're loving every step of the way.

And there might be a few times where it's not as what you expected. So just know that try not to retreat into isolation like I did and try to navigate to your friends, your family. I like how you phrased therapy, Robin, conversation today, because it can be incredibly valuable. It was valuable for me. It was valuable for you.

I know tons of people that have seeked out therapy for various reasons and it's been successful for them. And there's always better days ahead. It's awesome. So I hope people walk away from this just saying, yeah, change can be tough, but as long as you surround yourself with really good people, it can lessen the load.

Rob: Yeah. So I'd to leave listeners with just a couple of thoughts. It's loneliness is common as you go through transition or change, and it and it can be temporary. It can be for a brief period of time as long as you decide to do something about it. Therapy is performance coaching.

It's personal coaching and performance to help get the best out of you, and so embracing the opportunity to seek out professional help, seek out the person that can help you actually move forward. Connection is a skill that can be relearned. It's something we all did before at some point in our lives. I think back to when we were kids, and we had to, come home alone, we're the latchkey generation, and open up the house door, and you get lonely and bored and lonely at home. And what you do is I I know I looked out the window to see who else was at home, whether their kids may be out in the front yard, and let's go out and play.

And so that's a choice to start to learn and start to relearn that skill of making connection and putting yourself out there. The opportunity to go and meet new people, make new interactions, and put yourself out there. Midlife is that chance for you again. Embrace solitude, but replace the loneliness. That's your choice.

You're the director of your next great act.

Lena: That's it for this episode of Midlife Circus. Visit midlifecircus.fm for show notes, transcripts, and all the latest happenings. And while you're there, be sure to sign up for our newsletter so you never miss an update. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts so you never miss your next great act. Before we go, a quick reminder.

The opinions and stories shared here are just that, personal reflections and perspectives. We're not legal experts, medical professionals, or therapists. This show is for entertainment and inspiration only, so please seek the right professionals when you need guidance.

Thanks for listening, and we'll see you under the big top next time. Midlife Circus is a Burning Matches Media production.